Parties with a plan to fix things do not resort to this behaviour, but this is all the Labour right knows how to do. Tories might say dreadful things about their opponents, but when do they launch co-ordinated campaigns against individuals like the Labour right? https://open.substack.com/pub/councilestatemedia/p/starmer-is-doing-gutter-politics?r=cfvq7&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
@francis The person who drove "the character assassination of Jeremy Corbyn" was Jeremy Corbyn himself, through 40 years of his own words, associations and actions.
@hughster try reading the article.
@francis I did—its what I'm responding to.
@hughster He is mentioned, but the thrust is those pathetic adverts
@francis At the end of the article, it says:
"If you look at the character assassination of Jeremy Corbyn, for example, that was driven almost entirely by the Labour right. They did the Tories’ work for them. They literally got themselves into this position by being Tory enablers and now they’re here, they don’t know what to do, so they’re trying the same trick again."
This is the part I'm criticising.
Corbyn was not "character assassinated". Almost all that was reported about him was true.
@francis So yes, the thrust of the article was the adverts, but this needless aside detracts from the point and reduces its credibility.
@hughster I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. One careful owner.
@francis Do you believe that nothing that was reported about him was true?
Compared with Johnson and Johnson's cronies the man is a saint. For example Johnson is a nasty racist and anti semite and the tory party is dodgy as hell in general.
Which party was attacked and had things made up about it?
Which party now has a hierarchy of racism and has done nothing about it?
@hughster Have you seen the Al Jazerra Stuff? If you have you know my answer.
@francis So you're saying no? You don't believe anything that was reported about him was true?
@hughster very little - but also how relevant is the truth or otherwise in the face of the Tory lie machine? They would have made toe fungus into a diplomatic incident. Why are you getting worked up about this?
@francis "Getting worked up"? I asked you a question and you didn't seem to want to answer it.
Here is a list of facts reported about Corbyn limited to antisemitism (before we get into questions about the IRA and so forth). All of these are true and verifiable, neither fabricated nor even exaggerated. I can substantiate each and every one, should you want me to.
This has nothing to do with "the Tory lie machine". This is stuff Corbyn did, himself, that they only had to accurately report.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTUJtsfTGX6MM4PA8z_n9k5KmSKx58fXa
It's funny how none of this was a problem until an actual socialist became leader, isn't it?
@francis Again, you're not actually engaging with any of the points. Feel free to pick one! There are 51 to choose from.
Simon Maginn is an antisemite, by the way, as is Chris Williamson (plus who knows how many others I haven't counted yet):
I can't see the point in continuing
People saying things you don't agree with doesn't make them anti semitic. It kind of proves their point, tbh.
You have to prove your position and repeating the words of bad actors doesn't prove anything.
@francis Are you telling me that "the Jewish community…defends the slaughter of children" and "Iranian demonstrations…[are] a Mossad/Soros plot" are not antisemitic?
@hughster Are you telling me that you believe a life long peace campaigner would endorse such crap?
But yanno - are you defending the horror that's happening in Israel right now? The beatings at the mosque, shooting kids in the head (again) etc. etc. etc.?
@hughster Plus at least 4 of those 50 points are addressed by Maginn's videos. Which you won't watch or engage with, I assume.
@francis Once again, you're not answering my question, I suspect because you know it's bad.
The guy whose videos you've just linked me to, presumably to "debunk" the evidence I showed you, is himself an antisemite. Among other things, he's said things like "the Jewish community…defends the slaughter of children".
Why would you try to debunk evidence of antisemitism by linking to an antisemite's videos?
@francis Incidentally, you're doing exactly what Corbyn himself did for 40 years: see his friends spouting antisemitism happening right there in front of him but choose to deny, defend or downplay it "because they're my comrades".
Even though I've just shown you that Maginn is an antisemite, you can't acknowledge the point. He's a good socialist, and that's all that matters.
Am I?
Noticed you didn't distance yourself from the current wave of violence and racism coming from the Israeli government so obvs quite comfy with it. Perhaps some thought required?
You have not "shown" me Maginn is AS, you've *asserted* that he is.
I could assert that you are a teapot.
Doesn't mean you are one, does it?
I mean, how do you respond to the Forde report hierarchy of racism? Deny it probably.
@francis OK, so let me give you the opportunity to answer again: do you think this is an antisemitic comment? Yes or no?
Could you define shooting children and flattening their homes with bombs for me?
That's what he was talking about.
What's the rest of the context, did someone say Jewish Community in the context of, say, the people who will not condemn this and stick their fingers in their ears? As in they had already divided them up? Was he replying to such a view?
Like the JC claims to speak for all Jews and absolutely does not?
This is the problem - there's no context.
You're wasting far too much of my time - we will never agree, I won't privilege one form of racism over another. I'm tired of the double think where people like you defend or tacitly support the indefensible and then try to take some kind of moral high ground. I have better things to do than pander to your privileged world view.
There's no grounds to discuss or argue - you're taking isolated statements context free and then doing the high blood pressure dance.
Not joining in. #muted
@francis He thinks "Jewish community" itself is "an antisemitic canard"—in other words, he's calling all Jews who regularly use the phrase antisemitic. Because he's an antisemite, who defends other antisemites.
Again: just like Corbyn, you can't condemn someone on your side and you excuse anything that—if the Right ever did it—you would be the first to condemn.
@francis That's not really what I asked!